The Engineers Arms

[expat]

Does your remit for Merthyr Tydfil include satelite towns such as Aberdare please, as Merthyr Tydfil is always the registration point for data on genealogy sites?

If it includes Aberdare, I would appreciate your help. For many years I've been putting together a family tree from very little source information and have come to a dead-end with some connections. Unfortunately, contact with relatives was lost a long time ago. My core family (Thomas Thomas and his decendants) all lived within the Merthyr Tydfil catchment area and one branch lived at 32 Seymour Street, Aberdare (From the 1911 census) and this property was also once known as The Engineers Arms. The Publican and his wife (David and Elizabeth Williams - nee Thomas) were (I believe) to later become the licensees of The Gloster and The Royal Oak pubs respectively. I'm aware that the address is now just an end of terrace house but could someone please confirm whether the derelict corner site next to it was the Engineers Arms? Also, does anyone know if they were in any way connected to the Greatorex family who were licensees and lived at The Red Cow Inn near Merthyr? I found an article which suggests that the Engineers Arms may have ceased trading in 1903. As I now have no (known) relatives in the area any help would be much appreciated.
Ben

[mikemerthyr]

Hello expat This might or might not be helpful to you there is an obituary in the Merthyr Express newspaper for a Mr DAVID THOMAS age 94 it says born at RED COW INN PANTYDWR PONTSTICILL . The Inn had been in his family for 200 years. Later licencee of MOUNT PLEASANT INN UNION STREET DOWLAIS 40 YEARS. Married twice 2nd wife Mrs RACHEL SAMUEL ? died in 1915.The address of DAVID THOMAS is given as TANYRONEN THE WALK MERTHYR TYDFIL. This is on page 11 of the 12th JANUARY 1929 issue of newspaper.There looks to be a connection ? with the THOMAS family and the RED COW INN.
Mike

[expat]

Hello Mike,
Many thanks for your reply. Unfortunately, your info doesn't seeem to be related to my family so I'll put you in the picture and hopefully you can find something.

I've been researching my maternal grandfather's family (Thomas) who originated from Aberdare. My interest was whetted when my sister told me that our mother had been told very late in her life and after the death of her parents that she had a sister who was completey unknown to us. My grandparents moved to Treherbert soon after the birth of my missing aunt in 1916 and no more was heard of her or spoken of. The link with The Engineers Arms at 32 Seymour Street in Aberdare is that my aunt was born there. On the 1911 census David and Elizabeth Williams lived there and their occupations were Licensed Victuallers. My grandfather (William John Thomas) was Elizabeth Williams' sister and he was a well known local foootballer (in Aberdare/Merthyr) but had also played for Swindon Town and with cardiff City. My aunt's last known address was her birth place and we have her birth certificate but nothing else. We've hit a brick wall from that point. I found separate references to David and Elizabeth Williams (with both as Licensees) in on-line newspapares and related to The Glosters (David) and The Royal Oak (Elizabeth) but can only assume a link to the people I'm looking for, as they are fairly common names. My Aunt is the person I'm trying to find or any relatives of David and Elizabeth Williams. The pub connections were a possible avenue for us.

Thanks again for your efforts and if you can spare the time I'd welcome any input you can provide.

I'm now in Scotland, hence the expat but plan a visit to family soon.

Best wishes, Ben

[emily9368]

My reply is a couple of years late!! But - I can fill in any gaps on the Greatorex's of the Red Cow. My great great grandparents were the licencees, Sam and Mary Greatrex in the late 1890's, and Mary continued on her own when Sam died in 1899. Their son Thomas Greatorex lived there from 1901 with his children and his mother Mary until she died, and he then became the licencee. One of Tom's children is my grandma - I have no Thomas surnames listed in our family tree, I've researched the Greatrex side quite extensively, but I'll now look into it further to see if I can find a connection! We've visited the Red Cow on many occasions, taking my Gran on visits back when she was alive - we gave the current owners photos of all the Greatrex family including children and they are all displayed upstairs in the long room :-)

Thanks
Alison.

[expat]

Hello Alison, Thank you for responding to my post. I checked the site today by chance, as I've been going over past evidence regarding my missing aunt. I hadn't visited it for over a year. My link to the name Greatorex came about when I used the 1939 Register to follow up on females who were born on the same day as my aunt and were living in locations that my Aberdare relatives dispersed to. One of them was in Eastbourne. I had been working on the premise that, as my grandfather's parents were in the Licensing trade in Aberdare (and were quite well known) there might be a link via the name Greatorex and the Eastbourne female might be the connection, as it turned up in my investigations. It's tenuous, but informal adoptions were common in the period, especially with such high mortality rates. If you think there might be a connection I could supply the information if you wish? Thanks once again for responding. I look forward to hearing from you. Best wishes. Ben

[duke]

Jun 26, 2015 15:22:27 GMT 1 mikemerthyr said:

Hello expat This might or might not be helpful to you there is an obituary in the Merthyr Express newspaper for a Mr DAVID THOMAS age 94 it says born at RED COW INN PANTYDWR PONTSTICILL . The Inn had been in his family for 200 years. Later licencee of MOUNT PLEASANT INN UNION STREET DOWLAIS 40 YEARS. Married twice 2nd wife Mrs RACHEL SAMUEL ? died in 1915.The address of DAVID THOMAS is given as TANYRONEN THE WALK MERTHYR TYDFIL. This is on page 11 of the 12th JANUARY 1929 issue of newspaper.There looks to be a connection ? with the THOMAS family and the RED COW INN.
Mike

Hello,
This may be too late, but on 1 Apr 1968 a Thomas Henry WILLIAMS (married to a Claudia THOMAS) died at Tanyronen, The Walk, Merthyr Tydfil, according to the National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations).
Claudia THOMAS (born 26 Jun 1889, Merthyr Tydfil; died 25 Dec 1974, 332 Minster Road, Sheerness, Kent) was the daughter of a David THOMAS and Catherine JONES. David Jones died 4 Mar 1922, and remembered his son-in-law Thomas Henry Williams in his Will.
Does that help?
Regards,
John

[duke]

Jun 26, 2015 15:22:27 GMT 1 mikemerthyr said:

Hello expat This might or might not be helpful to you there is an obituary in the Merthyr Express newspaper for a Mr DAVID THOMAS age 94 it says born at RED COW INN PANTYDWR PONTSTICILL . The Inn had been in his family for 200 years. Later licencee of MOUNT PLEASANT INN UNION STREET DOWLAIS 40 YEARS. Married twice 2nd wife Mrs RACHEL SAMUEL ? died in 1915.The address of DAVID THOMAS is given as TANYRONEN THE WALK MERTHYR TYDFIL. This is on page 11 of the 12th JANUARY 1929 issue of newspaper.There looks to be a connection ? with the THOMAS family and the RED COW INN.
Mike

David THOMAS who died on 27 Dec 1929 at Tanyronen (a.k.a. Tan-yr-Onen), The Walk, Merthyr, left his interest in the Red Cow, Pantydwr, Pontstycill, to his niece Janet JONES who had been his housekeeper for many years, according to the report on his Will in the local paper.

[Merthyr Express 06 December 1930, page 10]

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