The Spite / The Farmer's Arms

[dean]

Does anyone know why is called the The Spite

cheers

Dean

[tucsonishot]

The story goes that there was some kind of disagreement between
the landlord of the Mount(ain Ash Inn) and a regular customer. Over what, I know not - but likely an exchange of words led to this certain person being banned. He then built his own pub, the Farmers Arms, two or three hundred yards further up Twyn Hill.
Of course, it's been known ever since as the Spite (as its origins were based on an act of spite rather than a measured business assessment)

[daveb]

I posted this back in late 2007. Perhaps anyone else can shed new light?

Hello All

I'm trying to locate any Information history etc / old photographs re the Farmers Arms (also known as The Spite) up in Mountain Hare as well as info about the Mountain Hare Inn (which was around the corner from the Farmers Arms) which was demolished in the early 1960's

The Farmers Arms was apparently opened in the 1860’s after a dispute with the pub around the corner the ‘Mountain Hare Inn’ and was set up in ‘spite’, by my great great grandparents David & Margaret Morgan. Hence the pub’s nickname ‘The Spite’.

The story goes that the Landlord of the Mountain Hare Inn (surname Powell) had three daughters. On death he would leave the pub to his oldest daughter (my great great grandmother)Margaret. However when he died the pub was in fact left to the middle daughter! Because David Morgan, Margaret’s husband, was quite well to do he felt the middle daughter deserved it more! This caused something of a rift so David and Margaret who lived round the corner at 25 Mountain Hare, started up the pub ‘The Farmers Arms’ in spite!

My great grandparents David William Morgan and his wife Charlotte took over the pub from David Morgan but they both died in 1914 / 1915 and as far as I'm aware that's when my ancestors no longer lived or ran the pub.

Re the Mountain Hare Inn I can't seem to find out much at all about the pub as I'm now keen to trace my ancestors who would be the family of my great great grandmother Margaret Morgan (formerly Powell).

If anyone has any info at all it would be greatly appreciated!

[greygirl]

Hi daveb
I have Powell ancestors who lived in Mountain Hare and one of them is a Margaret Powell b 1828 ish. Her parents William and Mary lived next door to the Farmers Arms between 1841 and 1861 and after that their son John lived there with his wife Ann and at least 9 children. Mountain Hare was such a tiny place back then that there must be some connection between your Powells and mine.
Greygirl

[phillipwilliams]

totaly off topic but .............. I'm tryig to get hold of Dai and have not transfered either of the numbers I had for him onto my new(ish) phone. The numbers the google throws up for the Spite are all "unavailable".

does anyone have an up to date number either the pub or Dai?

ta

[greygirl]

Hi daveb
Hope you get this message
Your great great grandmother Margaret Morgan was the oldest daughter of my great great great grandfather William Powell who lived next door to the Farmers Arms. I have a copy of his Will from September 1867 in which he names his daughter Margaret Morgan and her two sons Shadrach and David William as beneficiaries as well as his surviving children John, William and Lydia. The Will does not mention a pub or inn but does mention "the house in which I now live", the cot next door (these were left to son John), and the cot and stable in Mardy St (which were left to daughter Lydia). Perhaps "cot" was a local term for a pub?
William did have 3 daughters, Margaret, Lydia and Ann - Ann died before 1867, and also had 3 sons, David (who died before 1867), John and William
Greygirl

[daveb]

Hello Greygirl. Only just discovered your post!

Wow! Excellent. So William Powell is Margaret's father and therefore like you, he is my great great great grandfather !!!

I have extensive records of David Morgan and his wife Margaret (Powell) and all their children. Daughter Mary was born in 1848 (she married Edward Lewis) and lived in Mardy Street. A second child Shadrach was born in 1856, but however he was to pass away aged 6 on the 25th April 1856 at 5.40am from Pertusis Pneumonia (Whooping Cough).

12th December 1861 saw the birth of another Son at 25 Mountain Hare. The son was also named Shadrach.

On the 15th May 1864 a further son was born to David and Margaret, my great grandfather DAVID WILLIAM MORGAN. But he was born next door to the Farmers Arms at Number 26 Penheolferthyr. The family living next door to the pub on both the 1861 & 1871 Census’s were the Powell’s (and now re your post can now confirm they were related to the Morgan's)

The 1871 Census at 25 Mountain Hare lists: David Morgan 45 Miner, Margaret Morgan 42 Wife Beer Seller, David W Morgan 6 Scholar, Shadrach 9 Scholar plus Mary Lewis 3 Granddaughter along with 22 year old servant Elizabeth Clynton.

David Morgan’s wife Margaret died aged 47 on the 18th December 1875 at the Farmers Arms. The coroner of Glamorgan at an inquest on the 20th December reported that cause of death was from Apoplexy. The Merthyr Express on December 25th 1875 reported under the Local Intelligence heading prior to the Inquest: SUDDEN DEATH OF A LANDLADY – On Saturday morning last, Mrs Margaret Morgan, the wife of Mr David Morgan, landlord of the Farmers Arms, Twynyrodyn, was found by the servant girl dead in bed. Disease of the heart is believed to of been the cause of death.

I've got loads loads more on the Morgan family, Son David William Morgan took over the pub and one of his sons William Morgan (my grandfather) was born on 2nd July 1902 in the house next door to The Farmers Arms no 27.

Too much to mention all in one go now. Shadrach is a family name. David Morgan who married Margaret Powell. His brother was also Shadrach.

David Morgan's son David William Morgan also had a son, bother of my grandfather, called David Shadrach Morgan.

[daveb]

So who ran the Mountain Hare Inn then is another burning question?

In 1861 the Census lists The Mountain Hare Inn
Heol Wermood RG 9/4052 Mountain Hare Inn Folio 14-15

whilst

In 1861 Census for William Powell
1861 26 Mountain Hare, Merthyr Tydfil RG9/4052 folio 13 pg 19
William Powell head wid 68 contractor b. Brecknockshire, Llanspyddid
Lydia dau 22 house keeper
John son 19 coal miner
William son 18 hauling mine

So was it Lydia's twin sister Ann at the Mountain Hare Inn further on up the road from The Farmers Arms

GreyGirl have you by any chance looked at the 1861 Census for Mountain Hare Inn. I have not had time yet to look.

[greygirl]

Well, I've been looking at trade directories and census records re: the Mountain Hare Inn (which was on Penheolferthyr either no 59,60 or 61 depending on the house numbering at the time) and cannot find any obvious connection to the Powell family.
Proprietors of the Mountain Hare Inn
1841 Thomas Henry (David & Cecilia Morris at same address. David Morris “for many years landlord of the Mountain Hare Inn” died 1844)
1849 Cecilia Morgan (?Morris)
1851 Thomas Martin (wife Lucy)
1852 Thomas Martin
1861 Maria Phillips (widow, children have the surname Williams)
1866 Catherine Williams
1871 Thomas Davies (wife Mary)
1875 Mary Davies
1841 census
Penheolferthyr (no house numbers)
David Morris 60yrs collier (not Glamorgan)
Celia Morris 55 (Glamorgan)
David Morris 15 Engineer (Glamorgan)
Mary Williams 20 Servant (not Glamorgan)
Thomas Henry 40 Innkeeper (not Glamorgan)
Richard Morris 30 Mine Agent (Glamorgan)
1851 census
59 Penheolferthyr – Mountain Hare Inn
Thomas Martin Head Married 33 Victualler and mineral purveyor (?surveyor) bMerthyr Tydfil
Lucy Martin Wife Married 20 bMerthyr Tydfil
Mary Lucy Martin Daughter 2 bCwmtillery, Mon
Margaret Thomas Martin Daughter 2mo bMerthyr Tydfil
Martha Daniel Servant 20 General servant bCarmarthenshire
Ann Davies Servant 13 bMerthyr Tydfil
1861 census
60 Mountain Hare – Mountain Hare Inn
Maria Phillips Head Widow 54 Innkeeper bPembroke
David Williams Son Unmarried 19 Haulier mine bMerthyr Tydfil
Cath Williams Daughter Unmarried 20 Housekeeper bMerthyr Tydfil
Edmund Thomas Visitor Unmarried 19 Haulier mine bMerthyr Tydfil
Gwladys Thomas Visitor Unmarried 14 Servant bMerthyr Tydfil
1871 census
61 Mountain Hare – Mountain Hare Inn
Thomas Davies Head Married 53 Licensed victualler bMerthyr Tydfil
Mary Davies Wife Married 52 Housekeeper bMerthyr Tydfil
David Jones Lodger Single 44 Miner bCarmarthenshire
Thomas Jones Lodger Married 23 Haulier bMerthyr Tydfil
Catherine Jones Lodgers Wife Married 16 bMerthyr Tydfil
Richard Davies Son of Head 12 Haulier bMerthyr Tydfil
John Davies Son of Head 9 School bMerthyr Tydfil

Can you make anything of this Daveb. Maybe it was a different pub?

[greygirl]

.....also, if the Farmers Arms existed in 1861 as per the census, it can't have been opened in response to William Powell's Will because this was only written in the year that he died - 1867